Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

30

Why should God need a human organisation on earth?

by Dold Agenda in

if i should ask this to a relative jw.... - why should god need a human organisation on earth anyway?.

what answer will i get?

any scripts that they probably will show up to support this thinking?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Your JW relative will likely say that God has always had an organization. He will point to examples such as Noah's day (you had to affiliate yourself with Noah in order to survive), the nation of Israel, and the First Century Christian Congregation.

You could respond with questions such as these:

What organization did Job belong to?
What was God's organization between A.D. 200 and the 1870s?

Another line of reasoning that JWs will use is: The Bible says the Good News has to be preached before the end comes. How else could the Good News be preached worldwide without an organization?

Note that this is a bit of circular reasoning--the Witnesses basically say that the Good News has to be preached, and the JW/WT organization is doing that preaching; thus there must be an organization and it must be the JW/WT faith. Now, in order to accept this line of reasoning, you must agree that we are in the "last days" as described by the Watchtower. If we're not in the "last days," then our situation is no different from folks in the 1400s when there was no true organization, according to the Witnesses.

So, I would approach it this way:

Get the JW to admit that there was no "true Christian" organization in the 1400s (the WT teaches that this was the period of the wheat and the weeds where it was difficult to distinguish true/false Christians).
Ask the JW why God didn't need an organization then, but needs one now? [The JW will likely say that it's because we're in the "last days" now and the Good News needs to be preached now.]
Ask the JW something like this: "Ok, so you're saying that the reason God needs an organization is because we're in the last days? So, if it wasn't the last days, then God wouldn't necessarily need an organization, right? You admitted that he didn't need one during the Middle Ages, right?"
Then--if you wish--go in for the kill: "So, how do you know it's the last days--it's because the WT organization says so, right? Isn't that circular reasoning? You say that God needs an organization because it's the last days, but the WT organization is the one telling you it's the last days? Doesn't that seem a bit sketchy to you?"
The JW will likely stick to his guns on the last days issue, probably saying that the Bible is clear that these are the last days. This is fine. Use this as an opportunity to make him prove that the last days began in 1914. It's a great opportunity to poke holes in the 607 doctrine and highlight the WT's false prophecies and dubious history.

28

Recent assembly

by Iwonder17 in

1) stop using internet,facebook,myspace,email,texting and spend more time studying and in service.. my mate quit their facebook page when we came home lol.

2) maybe i am just more tuned into it now, but they mentioned "apostate" a lot more this time around, espicially when talking about the internet.. it keeps me thinking, if there is nothing to hide, then why is there such a big push not to look?

it's like an ugly girlfriend not wanting her boyfriend to look at the girls on the beach .

Olin Moyles Ghost

I would love to know what exactly was said regarding Facebook, if you can remember. If it's just the same old "don't waste too much time on that stuff" line, then that's one thing. But if it's a directive to avoid Facebook altogether, that's another thing entirely.

If the WTS comes down squarely against Facebook, that's going to really tweak a lot of the friends. TONS of Witnesses are on Facebook. Not just "weak publishers" either. Lots of pioneers, ministerial servants, even some elders.

149

NOW how do you view the Future?

by theMadJW in

jw
friends

casting aside what little you learned about god and christ- are you thrilled with the future of mankind?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Jonathan Dough asked: When was the flood?

My response: the WTS claims that the global flood was in 2370 BCE (see Insight I, 450-51), "only" 4379 years ago. Other fundamentalists tend to agree (see, for example, http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v4/i1/noahs_flood.asp arguing for a slightly later 2304 date).

Thus, findings such as the following create tension for JWs and other fundamentalists: http://sonic.net/bristlecone/dendro.html (just one example, there's lots of info out there).

149

NOW how do you view the Future?

by theMadJW in

jw
friends

casting aside what little you learned about god and christ- are you thrilled with the future of mankind?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

While I recognize that the OP is merely trying to "get a rise" out of folks on this board, I think s/he raises an interesting topic--the future of mankind.

Personally, I am "thrilled" to have the intellectual/academic freedom to examine various points of view on the future of our planet and the various species that reside upon it--including humans. For example, I am free to recognize what most informed citizens have known for years--that the United Nations is a paper tiger that does not have the power to "ban religion" as the Watchtower claims it will do.

Further, when I see evidence of bristlecone pines with tree rings going back to before the supposed global flood, I no longer feel the need to explain that evidence away. Same thing with arctic ice cores dating back tens of thousands of years, and the myriad other geological and biological findings that conclusively prove that there was no global flood in Noah's time.

Additionally, when I read of ritual genital mutilation, slavery, and the slaughter of women and children in the name of God in the Bible, I no longer feel the need to try to reconcile that with a "God of love." Rather, I review the available evidence and come to the most likely conclusion--that what we call the Bible is merely a collection of stories, rituals, rules, and some actual history--all written by men.

What is the result of these realizations--a feeling of responsibility and accountability. As a JW, we had no accountability. To the contrary, we were taught that "in the very near future," God would kill all non-Witnesses and fix everything. All we had to do was go to meetings and go out in service, then just sit back and let God fix everything. Now--as a citizen of the real world--I realize that we have a responsibility to each other and to our planet. That's a sobering thought. But it's also liberating.

74

Kelle Jarka

by isaacaustin in

jw
friends

has it been confirmed whether or not he was an active witness at the time of his crime?

can someone post the article making the statement to that effect?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

I find it interesting that Witnesses will complain when media reports mention the fact that a criminal is a JW. They say that there's a double standard because the media does not always report the religion of other criminals.

There are a few problems with this line of reasoning. First, in the Jarka case, the convicted murderer was an elder which is a JW clergyman. I dare say that if a local Baptist minister or Catholic priest was convicted of murder, the fact that he was a minister/priest would definitely be reported. Does anyone disagree?

Also, even in cases where a rank-and-file Witness is convicted of a crime, I think the criminal's religion is relevant and potentially newsworthy. Why? Well, the Society's position is that all publishers are ministers. As I mentioned above, if a minister of another religion was convicted of a serious crime, it would no doubt be reported.

Further, the public nature of the JW ministry makes it relevant for the public to know what sort of persons are knocking at their doors. For example, if a rank-and-file Baptist was a convicted thief/pedophile and chose to engage in door-to-door evangelism, I think it would be relevant for the media to mention his religious activities in its reporting. Wouldn't you want to know if such a person was walking around your neighborhood? The same standard should apply to Witnesses.

122

What's Your View on Tipping?

by minimus in

jw
friends

typically, i give at least 20% on my total bill.

if the service or the waitress is especially charming, maybe more.. i wonder, when you sit at a bar/restaurant and have a meal and drinks and then order a take out ( i do this for my mother quite often) are you supposed to tip on everything, including the takeout??.

when i stay in a hotel, i typically leave 2 or 3 dollars per day for the maid.

Olin Moyles Ghost

This thread reminded me of a classic scene from Reservoir Dogs...Mr. Pink is not much of a tipper...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38

193

Theotis French & Ray Franz's Disfellowshipping

by snowbird in

in coc, he is reported to have said, (quoting from memory, so i may be a little off) "we didn't come here to have you teach us, brother franz.

" from that remark, i gather he chaired the judicial committee?.

given his first name, i assume he's black.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Again, I'm not sure how the congregation boundaries were drawn in Gadsden/Etowah County the early 1980s, but the city of Gadsden has a much higher African-American population than the county as a whole. See http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=gadsden&_cityTown=gadsden&_state=04000US01&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010

According to the 2000 census, Gadsden was about 35% Black. That's a sizeable minority community.

193

Theotis French & Ray Franz's Disfellowshipping

by snowbird in

in coc, he is reported to have said, (quoting from memory, so i may be a little off) "we didn't come here to have you teach us, brother franz.

" from that remark, i gather he chaired the judicial committee?.

given his first name, i assume he's black.

Olin Moyles Ghost

It appears I may have stepped into a flame war. Nonetheless, here's a possible explanation for why a Black elder in rural Alabama chaired Ray's Judicial Committee: demographics.

I think it's beyond doubt that African-Americans are over-represented among JWs in the USA. By that I mean their percentage among the population of Witnesses exceeds their percentage among the general population. Black people make up about 13% of Americans, but according to the 2008 Pew study they make up about 22% of Witnesses. Thus, they're over-represented.

Anecdotally, I've observed and heard that this is exaggerated in the deep south--particularly in rural areas with sizeable Black communities. For example, once upon a time I had a conversation with a "worldly" person from such an area and he was surprised that I was a JW because he thought it was a "Black religion." (I'm a ghost, so obviously I'm white ;)

Again, I don't have specific knowledge about Gadsden Alabama, but it could be one of those cases where the congregation has a sizeable African-American population. In such a case, it would not be surprising that there would be several Black elders and that one of the Black elders would end up chairing Ray's J.C.

To me, that seems like the simplest explanation for all of this.

22

I never believed in demons

by drew sagan in

for the entire time i was a jw (1999-2007) i never believed in demons.. a few times i remember this getting me into small confrontations with jws.

a jw would talk about how demons were scary and powerful.

i would argue that i've never seen a demon, and that to be affraid of such things was silly.

Olin Moyles Ghost

To the OP: you summed up my position exactly. When I was a believing JW, I never believed any of the demon stories floating around the congregation. It seemed to be an odd coincidence that the only JWs I knew who claimed to have "demon experiences" were nut-jobs. I never knew any circuit overseers (or even elders for that matter) who had experiences with demons. None of my friends had experiences with demons. Rather, the demon experiences seemed to come from people who were already mentally unstable. Coincidence? I think not.

16

Validation and defense mechanisms, or why it's ok for billions to die

by zoiks in

more and more i have been thinking about the mindset that considers the idea that billions are to be destroyed at armageddon as perfectly ok. farkel's articles on freeminds.org really helped to bring it home for me.

as jws, we do (or did) think it was perfectly reasonable that billions will have earned a death sentence simply for not accepting religious literature from an uninvited person at their doorstep.

how do otherwise good people (for the most part) come to accept genocide as an acceptible, even good, solution to the problems they see and experience?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Well-put, Zoiks. Reminds me of the Kingdom Melody song called "Then They Will Know"--a nice little ditty preemptively gloating over the destruction of God's perceived enemies.

I think most JWs don't really believe that God is going to kill all non-Witnesses. I know that I didn't believe that. Most of my JW acquaintances don't, either. They say things like "he will read hearts at Armageddon." When I started thinking about this, it cemented the idea of how pointless the JW "preaching work" really is. I've had Witnesses admit to me that the preaching work is really no more than busy-work. It's how we prove to God that we're obedient and want to serve him.

So, yes, the doctrine about who is going to survive Armageddon (which is "imminent," by the way ;) is definitely one of the soft spots in WT/JW theology. While the WT almost never comes out directly and states that you must be a JW to have a chance at surviving Armageddon, they constantly talk about the "life saving" nature of the JW preaching work. Pick up any Kingdom Ministry and you're guaranteed to see at least one reference to the "life saving" work.

So, if it's truly a life-saving work, doesn't it logically follow that the lives of people who don't respond to (or aren't reached by) the preaching work are not saved? I don't see any other explanation. And then doesn't it follow that those whose lives are not saved will die? Otherwise, what does it mean to have your life saved?